But that is what it appears you are saying ! Here : “So you think it’s okay for Piet to stay a white person in blackface but you understand why the big red lips and black frizzy hair are problematic? “. It seems to me you don’t even want a black face (paint) than just the blackface. But if that is not what you meaning, please correct me. I too want to the issue dealt with as well, even if it means losing Zwarte Piet but I would like it done honestly as possible with both sides more or less happy. Please don’t accuse me of dishonesty. I may have made bad arguments (but have yet see any serious error pointed out) and have said them in an unkindly tone, but I have never intended to be be dishonest about my position or understanding. Have I not asked to clarify your position ?
“Why not have them just be multi-color piets, i.e. not representing (and offending) any nation or race or religion but just being fun, imaginary characters, like, for example, Teletubbies or Muppets?” I start with last one first. That is what Zwarte Piet are! Dutch have always viewed them as just fun, and imaginary characters that were never intended to represent or mock a certain group. That is why they are upset. If you are upset with his appearance then change it something less offensive. Stop saying Zwarte Piet is racist and start advocating for a better change in his look (this is for all anti-Pete supporters). The problem with the multicolor piet, is not the idea but that zwarte piet will still be there. If Zwarte Piet is racist than having a black person playing Piet still keeps Zwarte Piet, which is stated to be racist. Once again, I think the real problem is the appearance not Zwarte Piet the character. Do you agree ?

Oh, for goodness sake, it’s disingenuous to say that this means white people can’t put black paint on their bodies. They can’t if they’re doing it to ridicule people of color! And yes, that goes for red skin, if they’re putting it on to portray Native Americans, and yellow skin, if they’re using it to portray Asians. A black person could portray a black person, of course! But I doubt you’d find any willing to portray a racist stereotype of black people. Why not have them just be multi-color piets, i.e. not representing (and offending) any nation or race or religion but just being fun, imaginary characters, like, for example, Teletubbies or Muppets? Why are so many people hanging on to this? I’m just tired of arguing about it.

What do you consider blackface ? My definition and many pro-Piet supporters is the big red lips, black frizzy hair and black face paint as a whole pretending to represent what an dark-skinned African looks like. Your definition seems to be that white Europeans can’t have black paint on their bodies. Is that correct ? Don’t wish to misunderstand your position.
If you are against the correcting of his appearance, are you against having a native born dark-skinned still play him as well?

And if white Europeans can’t wear black or brown face paint, why are you fine with a rood piet from the previous article ? Is that not a stereotype made by white people of a red skinned person ? Why is it racist to call people of a particular color “red” and “yellow” and yet not “black” or “white” ( obvious no person skin is are any of the above colors, I am no more white than an dark-skinned is black but how else are you to describe someone’s skin color).

You still appear to be more upset with Zwarte Piet’s portrayal than the actual character.

So you think it’s okay for Piet to stay a white person in blackface but you understand why the big red lips and black frizzy hair are problematic? To me (and many others) they’re all part of a package: they’re all part of white people stereotyping and ridiculing black people.

Apologies for the way I have acted. After seeing my posts, I can see they were not of a good manner. I didn’t intend to be insulting nor was term ‘whiner’ meant for you. Please forgive my rash behaviour.

My point though still stands. Even if proven that Zwarte Piet was not a racist or slave character in the beginning (ignoring human errors of later years), he must still be gone with because it upsets people. That by definition is whining. That’s not to say that we just leave as Zwarte piet as he is. I do believe the big red lips, only black frizzy hair, and making him only dumb in action are problematic and should be corrected. Nor have I a problem with changing his clothing to spanish upperclass (I believe that is more culturally accurate and more in the intention of the character). I myself have no problem with a white man wearing black face paint, no more than seeing a black person in white…(continued)

Wow! Do you see no parallels between the #blacklivesmatter movement in the US and how people of color are treated in the Netherlands? What you call an obsession with racism is a sorely-needed introspection that is happening here in the Netherlands too. The country is finally beginning to face up to the dirty underbelly of what they have been so proud of in their history, particularly the so-called “Golden Age”.

As I’ve said before, just because it’s your tradition doesn’t make it good. And I know a lot of people don’t want to accept us immmigrants as really being Dutch, but many of us are, including me. The Dutch should want to change it (Not eliminate it; just take out the racist elements) if for no other reason than not to look so bad to other countries. In today’s world, no country exists in isolation from others.

No need to be insulting to me! If ZP used to teach people to accept those who look different than you (and I don’t know if that’s true; I’ve never heard of that), it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a person in blackface and it’s offensive now. You can tell me as much as you want that blackface isn’t racist, it just appears to be, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is. And calling me a whiner for calling out this racist tradition doesn’t change it.

So if I told you that zwarte piet used to teach people to accept those who look different than you, you would ignore it because a small group complained? That is by definition what being a whiner means. Someone who will cry over how evil something appears to be despite being corrected that it is not.

What is also shocking is how easy to judge from the spectator seats as well as having the power of omniscience. It’s not your tradition and culture that is on the lie now is it ?